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February 3rd, 2003

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06:20 am - Return from the Mac... T00bage
1) The concept of MacT00bage as a name is a sophisticated one. T00b is a word used through many of the hipper parts of the Harry Potter fandom; it does not come directly from any of the books and its precise origin is appropriately enigmatic. The etymology I put most trust in has a prominent fan fiction writer called Rube (the name Kissaki is sometimes mentioned here too, for reasons I don't understand) describing herself as "Rube the t00b" for rhythmic value, only for other people to decide that they rather liked the sound of it. The word has a placeholder function with little specific meaning and appears in a number of grammatical forms. (Compare with "wibble", as used in Viz and 1980s-1990s ZX Spectrum magazines - though "wibble" now has specific connotations of confused distress within the HP fandom.) Most frequently "t00by" is an adjective used to mean "fannish" with connotations of light-hearted, amiable folly; by extension, t00bage refers to such behaviour en masse and MacT00bage such behaviour in Scotland. Clear?

Along similar lines, the general gimmick of replacing the letter "o" with the digit "0" probably can be dated back to the first writer of advertising posters who decided to write the word "look" and turn the letter "o"s into cartoon eyes. From there, famous paleo-USENET running-joke B1FF stereotypes the replacement of many letters with digits; from here, we get the so-called 1337-speak. Probably only one such word has made it to the mainstream, "w00t", which has apparently been described as an EverQuest contraction of "wonderful loot", though I prefer the school of thought that the word predates EverQuest and has popularity due to being a bastardised sort of miscellaneous joyful "whoop". It is easy - and, indeed, 00ber-t00by - to turn pretty much every appearance of "oo" into "00" by extension. A lot of that went on. It was very silly, in a good way.

2) The typical day tended to start s00n before n00n... er, shortly before midday with extended amiable queueing for the bathroom. It would tend to include most of:
  • a few trips to the local Tesco metro superstore for provisions

  • the play of lots of games (mostly Scrabble, a little Cluedo and more)

  • copious posting to LiveJournals and use of online messenger services

  • much home cooking

  • some unusually deep and precise discussion of comparisons of transatlantic culture for this compendious document

  • extremely copious smutty reference

  • considerable singing.
The most-sung pieces included Hallelujah (by Leonard Cohen and/or Rufus Wainwright - not too sure here, but practically to be found on the Shrek soundtrack) and approximately daily runthroughs of the entirety of "One More, With Feeling" (the musical Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode). Everyone else could sing bloody well. Listening to people spontaneously starting to sing well is a real joy, joining in when you can is even better, being someone who doesn't know the song in a room of singers is no fun. Nobody else's fault there but my own, of course - I shall have to proactively start listening to more things that are liked by the people I like, practicing them so that I can join in with confidence. (I had brought a CD that I know that at least leiabelle and I could have sung along to, but I didn't actually think of playing it...)

To be fair, there was no such thing as a typical day: the first three days were taken up with people arriving, which was the major way to divide the day. This also meant we spent time following people's travel plans - the best laid plans of mice and men coming up against weather difficulties, as discussed elsewhere. I spent today preparing to leave. By contrast, Friday and Saturday nights were relatively similar: those who were drinking consumed many glasses of potent potables and there was considerable off-the-wall discussion.

3) There was remarkably little discussion of Harry Potter and the fandom, though a highlight were our readthroughs of the puppet show versions of the first two movies, complete with accents. cygnusfap does a remarkably accurate impression of Vladimir Putin Dobby the House-Elf. There was a lot of Buffy, far more than I was expecting, but even those who hadn't taken any previous interest whatsoever in Buffy (of which I was not the only one!) weren't lost. There was considerable attention paid to the Once More With Feeling musical episode, which is a very impressive piece of television by any standards. There was a considerable amount of sung "Grr. Arg." taking place over the weekend, almost to catchphrase proportions. If I happened to be downloading mp3s and RealAudio files of this episode, then I might happen to be doing so from a source which doesn't have the end credits with that ace broom-dance music and the endcap. Help, help, hint, hint. ;-)

I really will have to start to pay attention to Buffy at some point. It does seem very much to be the in-thing at the moment, though I suspect it probably really was very early-2000s in practice. Oh well. What next?

4) The highs were considerable, obvious and just the ones you'd hope for from a good party: memories to last a lifetime, shared jokes and turns of phrase that could not have been cracked anywhere else in the world, fab new friends and at least two handsful of experiences that I haven't tried before. (See the icon!) Just the chance to share a specialist culture with pleasant, like-minded people is a wonderful thrill, even (especially!) if this manifests itself at as high low a level as making up silly words with l00ts 00f zer00es.

The low points come into two categories: those which are personal to me, being based on internal misgivings, failings and self-unconfidences, so things that I don't want to talk about so much and to which you probably don't want to listen. There were also a few low points which were personal to other people which it would be rude of me to share. There was a particular ninety-minute-long low point on Saturday afternoon with the breaking news. In short, it's clear that I still feel uncomfortable with parties at large - I find they can be stressful, difficult and dismaying in some ways. On the other hand, I suspect this is pretty universal, even if it's not widely discussed as being such. Still can't help feeling that despite the immense happinesses and high points, overall I might not have enjoyed the event as much as everyone else, or perhaps as much as I feel I should have done. Can't think that anything needs to be changed; certainly no fault of John as host or any of the other attendees, though.

Tip to myself for future reference: always take more blankets, floor coverings and other softeners than you think you'll need. While sleeping in oddree's cupboard - the cupboard beneath the stairs! - was great for privacy, I think I would recommend it to someone three or four inches shorter next time.

5) One game I played for the first time and enjoyed was Gnome Toss - a licensed product. Sadly it contains neither actual gnomes nor actual tossing, but it's a pretty good fast-action twitch-reflex playing card game. It's at heart a six-player card game. Each player starts with a chunk from a communal deck of cards and plays it a card at a time onto a central pile; the image on the card indicates who should play next, either through its background colour or through a pattern of arrows. Playing at the wrong time or failure to play at the right time (there's a neat "challenge card" buzzer-like mechanism for this) penalises you by adding the stack to your deck; the first player to play their entire deck out wins. Some card images trigger all players slapping a specific card of theirs on the deck or raising it above their heads, the last to lose taking the central stack by way of a forfeit.

As I suspect may be reasonably typical, I took a while to learn what was going on, losing the first game horribly and winning the second flat cold. This implies a learning curve of two games, which means that this isn't a game you're going to want to play for five hour-long games in a day, but it's ideal as a party game where you might play it for half an hour twice a year for three years, having the fun of relearning the ways to think about identifying what happens next each time. It feels like the equivalent of the traditional £1.99 computer game. While I always have a strike against games which are designed to find a loser and spit out a winner as a side-effect, I'd play this again. People who enjoyed Gnome Toss would probably also like Concerto Grosso, a vaguely similar card game which has sillier actions (it's all about a rabbit orchestra...) and slightly different twists to the gameplay.

6) Something I had considerable cause to think about over the weekend was my relationship with alcohol. Specifically, I don't touch the stuff at all, though everyone else did. Being so out of touch with the opinions of people I like and respect is always good cause to make you reexamine your assumptions and reasoning, so here are the reasons that spring to mind as to why I don't drink.
  • I don't want to get drunk. The concept of "enough to drink" often seems to be ill-defined and the substance has judgement-altering properties which may not facilitate you to make good judgements in this area. My reasons for not wanting to get drunk include avoidance of mishap and embarrassment, which are actually quite selfish, vain and untrusting. On the other hand, I don't regard "Dutch Courage" (the poor Dutch!) as a virtue; if you are too inhibited to do something sober, then it's probably a poor idea for you to do it at all.

  • It's irrational. zorac (and I don't think he'll mind me quoting him, for I don't recall this being confidential) insightfully said that he does try to live his life by the principle of being a nice guy. This is entirely honourable and we can all attest to his generosity. :-) By this token, I feel that I can best justify my actions if I feel them to be rational - and I cannot find it rational to deliberately do something to impair my judgement of rationality. This doesn't stop me doing something completely irrational when I think it's funny and when I think everyone will find it funny, but I can't work out why I don't find the prospect of getting drunk funny.

  • Difficult to distinguish between drink and other drugs. As we all know, alcohol and tobacco cause at least as much vaguely hand-wavingly detriment to the world and its inhabitants as other modern forms of narcotics; it's only really historical cultural accident that fags'n'booze are seen by the world as OK when (eg) dope is largely seen by the world as Not OK. I support the theory that we should be consistent, but tend to favour solutions involving harsher treatment of alcohol and tobacco over ones involving less harsh treatment of other substances. (Only up to a point, though - I do recognise organic chemistry has this habit of naturally pushing alcohol to the inhabitants of this world in a way in which it doesn't push other stimulants. See the Prohibition period, passim.)

  • I might like it. This is the biggest reason of them all and I'm not completely convinced it's a valid one. The theory goes that if I decide I like alcohol and getting drunk then I may want to do it again, which is inconvenient and non-trivially expensive in both time and money. However, I'm not sure to what extent in general you can accurately judge the upsides and downsides of an action in advance without doing it - the extent to which it's acceptable not to do something because you don't like the possibility that you might enjoy it. It does seem a very negative, counter-productive general position to take, but on the other hand it seems impossible to ignore. Unfortunately I fear I may be looking for a general resolution of this dichotomy which does not exist, which is worrying.

I would also suggest that no matter how traditional drinking games might be, especially the infamous/notorious "I Have Never", they are a bad, counter-productive tradition which deserves to be proactively campaigned against rather than to be encouraged. While I have no objections to the practical game of "I Have Never" we played (queerasjohn described it as "not too dodgy", which worryingly implies the existence of a dodgier level), it's a game which at least implicitly encourages some destructive principles. Sharing tales of the things you have done (especially the exotic, daring or erotic ones) can be stimulating for both donor and recipient, but "I Have Never" implements this through a strange falsely-honour-bound regime of bullying, peer pressure and non-consensuality. I'm not sure if the right bunch of people exist with whom I would - should? - ever want to play "I Have Never" again. Count me out in future, folks, drinking version or no, and I hope that people won't mind if there is a non-"I Have Never"-ing faction from now on.

Reanalysing the general principle of "I Have Never", the concept of "Someday I'd Like To" could be more interesting. I wonder if there's a more consensual, more effective way to stimulate people to proactively think about things of which they wouldn't normally think, yet not force them to do so in an oppressive environment? This is working on a principle that all overshare and WTMI should be voluntary, but it could well be useful and beneficial for there to be a way for someone to indicate an event in a more subtle fashion than explicitly stating what they have or have not done. The game might be improved with a sense of thrill, a sense of tease, a sense of "masked ball" mystery to it - yet it would be a desirable thing if people could somehow find a mutual shared interest that they would never actually vocalise. Perhaps the "Oral Sex Donations Accepted" button has more than a joking purpose to it after all.

I find the consent and trust issues involved here disturbing, not to mention the fact that people don't seem to recognise (or apparently to care) that there are issues involved; I feel that I need to think about them rather more deeply. On the other hand, I also have a half-feeling that I'm being precious and pretentious about what really is a non-issue here. Or maybe it's not a non-issue if it's giving me problems? Hmm. I don't know.

(Grammarians, what's the difference between infamy and notoriety? This isn't the first line of a joke - I'm curious what the distinction between the two is.)

7) The conclusion of the event was slightly dissatisfactory, but purely my own fault. I misjudged how long a particular Tesco's run would take and so didn't get to give proper goodbyes to... anyone. Avoiding dramatic upscale "goodbye" angst is good, I guess, but it's not a fitting conclusion to a memorable event, somehow. Accordingly you t00bs are going to get online goodbyes. I really was going to hug you all when giving you them, too, and rather looking forward to it. Kindly imagine my air *glomps* and it's eyes down in approximate order of arrival for a full house:
  • queerasjohn: much much with the queerasjohn-loff. Or, in translation: many, many thanks for going to the time, effort, trouble and consideration of organising this event. You're an ace, hard-working host and a kind-hearted, generous guy. It's a joy to have got to meet you and I look forward to what you have to say in the future much more, now I feel I have a better idea of the intents of your comments which I have sometimes been unsure about in the past. In short, I'm thrilled to find out that you're really a great big fluffy bunny rabbit rather than a spiky bitch queen - but if you want to be both at once then that's cool too. :-)

  • mhw: the event was so much better for your presence. As well as being really sweet, great conversation, talented and generous with your effort, you're also really practical and really wise. Safe, comfortable journey home. *subscribes to alt.fan.you*

  • akahannah: lots of fun to get to meet you, I really enjoyed it when we got to chat. Glad you had such a good time over the whole event - fingers crossed for many more in the future. Your boyfriend is a lucky guy.

  • zorac: Mark, I've seen a whoooole different side of you this weekend compared to the past. I feel proud of you and proud to know you. Do you know just how many ways there are in which you rock so very hard, iama@ ? (Aside: can I have assh@t00b.net? Pronounce it...)

  • petulans: you weren't how I expected from your LJ, though I suspect I might not having been paying enough attention to it in order to accurately base opinions. I enjoyed the few short conversations we had because you're good fun to talk to and it would be cool to see you again.

  • anatsuno: you're awesome - I'm quite a bit in awe of you for your superhuman driving stamina skills and for the plain, wise good sense that you spoke. You're absolutely nice-mad for coming so far just for a fandom meet and I hope that it's all been worthwhile despite the hassle.

  • altricial, starcrossedgirl and penelope_z: I didn't get to speak to any of you much, mostly because of the smoking thing, but it was my loss. I enjoyed getting to meet you, am thrilled that you came so far and through so much difficulty to get here. I hope you all travel home safely, comfortably and happily; fingers crossed that our paths will cross again some day.

  • leiabelle: you are the t00biest of the t00by and the w00biest of the w00byie. Your sense of fun is even more playful and enchanting in real life than it is in your LiveJournal and it's so cool just to know you and to get to know the ways you're thinking. I look forward very much to seeing all the photos and videos and hope to get to see you again some day, hopefully without too much dilly-o.

  • lasultrix: you have this incredible sense of natural charisma even in a party which did seem to attract a lot of leader-types. It was great to get to meet you and every party would benefit from your presence. You might also have a convert to the Gill/Clarkson ship, even from someone who thinks real person slash is icky. Hooray for Ryanair!

  • frayer: sorry you couldn't stay longer. I enjoyed your ideas, your company and your accent. We really must try to get the North-East-and-Yorkshire types together at some point. Do you know other nice folk in Leeds, for instance?

  • cygnusfap: you're a kind, sweet guy and it's always a barrel of laughs to spend time with you and yay for getting to see the Norway pictures at last! (Here's to not getting you lost this time in Newcastle next time, right?) If t00bery gives you manb00bs then I dread to think how much of it the two of us together must have had over the years...

I am also honour-bound to point out that LASAIR IS THE VILEST PERSON WHO EVER LIVED. - but I wouldn't say that in a goodbye. Oh, if you don't know the reason behind this comment then I ain't saying. :-)

8) I suspect I really ought to see the Rocky Horror Show at some point (see discussion of Dublin, passim). Not sure whether the thought of seeing it in t00by company has excessively scary consequences or not.

It started to snow just as I got home from the journey, almost exactly as it was snowing when I left for St. Andrews all that time ago. This gave me a wonderful sort of "bookends" feeling, like you get in movies by that really classy director for a real sense of closure. This gave the whole MacT00bage experience rather a similarly classy sense of closure.

T00b. W00t. Sp00ns. M00se. Shr00k. Squ00t. T00bage. Grr, arg.

That sums up a weekend that has been wonderfully memorable for all the right reasons rather well, really... :-)
Current Mood: happyt00byreflectivemissingyou
Current Music: "Once More With Feeling" - first through my head, then mp3s

(38 comments | Leave a comment)


[User Picture]
Date:February 2nd, 2003 11:16 pm (UTC)
I might like it. This is the biggest reason of them all and I'm not completely convinced it's a valid one.

I know a bunch of people who don't drink, and none of them have this as a reason. This is quite an interesting one. All reasoning for issues such as this [is/are] valid, although they might not be valid for all people.

(Grammarians, what's the difference between infamy and notoriety? This isn't the first line of a joke - I'm curious what the distinction between the two is.)

I've always considered infamy to be bad and notoriety to be not necessarily bad. I may be wrong.
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 08:43 pm (UTC)
All reasoning for issues such as this [is/are] valid, although they might not be valid for all people.

Excellent point - very true, very true.
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 12:00 am (UTC)
* on MacT00bage: I have also appreciated the additional twist on "Mac" since at least two of the computers present were Mac, and at least John-as-host is a Mac afficionado.

* on drink: I highly recommend the drinking lightly until vaguely tipsy but not anywhere near drunk strategy. Perhaps this is partly due to having been allowed equal access to social drinking in gatherings with my parents from a fairly young age, but I've never found that I am unable to see my own limit appearing on the horizon, and avoid ever meeting it. It is quite possible to enjoy social drinking without ever getting drunk. And rational as well, IMHO: you get the benefits of social drinking, and the fact that lots of it, at least the stuff I prefer, tastes good, and the mild buzz if you drink more than a drink or two, without ever crossing any of your personal lines. Not a "you should try" comment, but more a "this is how it works for me."

* on games: I like your turning I never into "Someday I'd Like To." Perhaps even: "Someday I might like to but am not 100% sure I'd actually go through with it." I've played I Never a few times in quite comfortable surroundings, and a few times highly uncomfortably. While now I'm 2 1/2 years older than I was the last time I played, and I think I'd feel much more comfortable asserting myself (both in not sharing if I didn't feel right about it, or in sharing unpopular or answers), I'm always in favor of finding better games. Less competitive ones, more fun, less coercive. etc.

* on Rocky Horror: See it once, at least, and see it live. There's absolutely no point to renting it on video, so don't even think of it! See it with someone you can trust to a)guide you through what the audience participation bits are and b)not let it out that you are a Rocky Horror virgin. I enjoyed the live show I went to, but given your feelings on I Never etc., I don't think you'd much enjoy having to do the (harmless but public and silly and, due to peer-pressure, not really consensual) t00bishness they make the virgins do at the beginning. And my best friend was lovely and never told a soul it was my first time.
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 08:58 pm (UTC)
Wheeee - many thanks for the long response. A completely unexpected pleasant surprise! :-)

I highly recommend the drinking lightly until vaguely tipsy but not anywhere near drunk strategy.

Afraid I don't like this as a solution on the grounds that knowing when to stop is non-trivial and there are completely different sets of social pressures on non-drinkers and those who have drunk even a little. Could well be that I'm just in the wrong circles, but this seems unlikely and unpalatable. On the other hand, once you - say - start playing a drinking game with spirits, it would be hard to change to playing it with non-spirits. (There might be solutions involving deception regarding the drink you pour for yourself, but these aren't in the right, well, spirit.)

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter; if your technique does work for you then more power to your elbow.

I would appreciate your thoughts on "I'd Like To...". My suspicion is that I've made it seem too complex. I do think most people learn games by oral tradition and this wouldn't be too hard to teach, though.

Rocky Horror: very, very interesting. I have to admit that it is somewhat alluring because it goes against my rational principles; I have read much about the audience partici... patiion, though not actually much about what happens in a so-called virgin sacrifice. I suspect that if I actually were to go one day then it would be doing the experience short not to say "in for a penny, in for the pound - give me the full virgin-roasting treatment". Probably best not to give spoilers in that case, though I suspect no two virgin sacrifices are the same.

I dunno - I've always got the impression that RH falls on the side of naughty rather than destructive and naughty can be a lot of fun in the right sort of spirit.
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 06:35 am (UTC)

Today: not so g00d

I'm posting this as a comment rather than a main article because the "right people" will get to see it this way and it feels like it should go here.

Really feeling quite down at the moment. Part of this is general post-MacT00bage missing-lots-of-nice-people void, which I fear that the other attendees have yet to come. (I do hope it turns out not to be as harsh for you as it is for me.) Part of this is that the whole experience doesn't seem to make sense - I can't work out or justify to myself why what we did was (should have been?) as much fun as it really was.

A large part of it is general dissatisfaction at myself, not least for feeling unable to join in in lots of different ways, some fair and some not, and having no coherent, satisfactory plan for trying to rectify this situation.

Back to bed. Things will pick up later.
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 07:56 pm (UTC)

Re: Today: not so g00d

I can't work out or justify to myself why what we did was (should have been?) as much fun as it really was.

Much like wondering exactly why we laughed our arses off at a GSC each of the 300 daily instances of somebody yelling "NOW ITZ TIMEFORTHA ROUND ROBIN GAME!" followed by staccato applause.

If it's fun, go with it. 'Swat I always say.
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 06:59 am (UTC)
Don't bother watching Buffy now...am very not impressed with the current season. Of course, that's just my lowly opinion. See the past seasons, particularly Season 1, 2 and 3.

Totally, totally understand you on the "not feeling I'm fitting in" thing. I have always had a hard time in crowds of people unless I know the people really, really, really, REALLY well. I suspect much angsting from me at Nimbus. Alas.

On drinking, I understand you some. My first year at university, I didn't drink. And I was with friends who drank a lot. It's a weird sense of being, watching everyone get more and more unbalanced around you. And a weird sense of not quite being with it.

I have never been drunk. The closest I've came was in Spain and I suspect I was merely tipsy. Admittedly it takes me quite a few drinks to get to the drunk state. But I enjoy have a couple of drinks among friends for fun; I absolutely love Amaretto Sours and Long Island Iced Teas. So...do whatever you want to do and don't feel bad about it. Not that you were feeling bad or anything but I know it's a weird feeling to be sober whilst others are getting merrily sloshed around you.

Rocky Horror Picture Show is a movie I do not like in the slightest. I don't find it really funny at all and don't understand it's siren call to people. Ah, but to each their own. I suppose it's a movie everyone should see anyway, even if just to understand culture references.

*looks at comment* This might be one of the longest comments I've typed. Anyways, I'm glad you had fun and I'm sorry about the withdrawel effects of having to leave MacT00bage. I understand that feeling as well. That's why the fandom needs to establish a house or commune or something. That way the fun doesn't need to end...

[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 07:48 pm (UTC)
I slightly disagree. This, IMO, has been a fun season of Buffy (err, of course you might be in England and on the previous season - didn't check before I started typing). However, there's no way to get into this show without having watched it from the beginning. The storyline is way too serialized and self-referential to pop into at Season 6/7.

The girlfriend tried to get me into it during season 4 and failed miserably; only by forc-feeding me Seasons 1-4 in order over a summer rerun season was I able to grasp what's going on and gain enjoyment from it.

"Friends" is the same way, but if you've avoided it thus far, cheers to you and keep it that way. :)
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 08:04 am (UTC)


Can 'Wibble' not claim Blackadder as its original source ? It's most unlike Blackadder to steal other people's humour...

Hope you're feeling better by the time you read this. I don't think there's much need to analyze the process of having fun too deeply - if you enjoyed yourself, that seems like a Good Thing !
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 09:19 pm (UTC)

Re: Wibble

Very good question indeed about "wibble". We need the services of a professional here. While we probably could get to a professional lexicographer, researcher and etymology specialist within a couple of friendships (ah, the benefits of an Oxford education!) it'd probably take the dedicated amateur with an extensive collection of Blackadder and Viz back issues to do a good job.

addedentry, I choose you!

...noting that he probably has neither, but would probably still be interested in the task.
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 08:09 am (UTC)

the pedant speaks

notorious: from Latin notorium, which already had a negative connotation of "scandalous facts;" it's believed to come from noscere, "to come to know."

infamous: directly from Latin infamis = in + fama, which is something like "disreputable" or "disgraced." Note that fama, "fame," doesn't have the positive connotation it has in English; it's used to refer to the state of being widely known generally, for good or ill.

In short, I don't think there's much difference in English, although you could etymologically say that the former is more like "there are ill facts known about you" and the latter more like "you are known to be bad."

Not you personally, of course.

But I think it's a very subtle distinction and the words are interchangeable unless you need that distinction to be meaningful, which, depending on your conception of selfhood, may or may not even be possible. :)

Anyway, to cover I Have Never and drinking in one swell foop: although I do drink (both in a wine-with-dinner way and a social-gathering way), I have long been uncomfortable both with "drinking games" in general and with pressure-based "sharing of personal details games" in general. I think the former fetishizes drinking in a way that makes it less fun to me than, say, playing a game while coincidentally having a beer on the side, and I think the latter tends to make the gregarious louder and the shy much more fidgety. So I'd like to stand up in proud support of the idea of developing "Someday I'd Like To" into a workable parlor game. I think it would benefit from structure -- the structure of a game can, I think, help people participate in a way that "let's sit around and discuss our hopes and dreams" might not.

With participants drinking, or not drinking, as they will, and because they desire refreshment, not because the game makes them. :)
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 09:24 pm (UTC)

Re: the pedant speaks

Thanks for the time, effort and thought you spent on the distinction - a fascinating and convincing treatise. I do get it, just about, though I doubt I shall ever be in a position to knowledgeably and appropriately deliberately use one rather than the other.

Your comments on the first iteration of "I'd like to..." would be very much appreciated. I'm convinced it looks like a winner on paper (*), though the proof of the pudding really is in the playtesting.

(*) OK, not on paper.
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 09:34 pm (UTC)
Have heard many worse ideas than soft-drinks-and-silly-voices!t00bage. :-)

*goes off to read your perceptions of Oxford for comparison*

I don't generally share my Y!M address: theoretically I was trying to have work colleagues on it only, though this has long ceased to be an issue, I'm almost never on any sort of messenger service except when I am deliberately trying to meet someone and have made an arrangement to do so and I'm almost always in "invisible" mode. But it's lurkwarbler all the same.

Trying to work out whether I would have enjoyed Oxford or not. Not sure. Probably about the same, really. The smokier and drinkier aspects would have been bad, but the swiftness of the event, the grandness of the occasion and my familiarity with the place would have been good. Ah well. Probably a waste of time thinking about it now.
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 09:20 am (UTC)
In what has to be a first, I've had to take notes on your post so as to respond to everything that appealed to me. I'm not sure what this says about me, but I don't think it's good.

First and foremost I want to thank you for the 00 explanation, as up until now I've been faking it. I've never used the 00 form because I was ignorant and assumed I'd end up looking the fop. More than anything I thank you for finally pointing out something I think should have been instituted long ago, especially as it pertains quite particularly to the both of us. That is that in terms of fandom it should be manb00bs. I will sleep easier tonight.

In regards to being behind on Buffy, you may want to bone up on those first 3 seasons out in boxed sets. I'm assuming they are available over there. This would benefit you a lot as you could peruse the commentary and extras along with the actual episodes themselves. It still puts you 4 seasons behind, but since the current season is in all likelihood the last, it makes for a pretty fair crib sheet. Also, in my opinion the first 3 seasons were the best with the peak at season 3.

As for Hallelujah I know Cohen wrote the original and Jeff Buckley did a version that is probably the most well known, but I was unfamiliar with the Rufus Wainwright version. And it's on the Shrek soundtrack? Seems odd. Anyway thanks for bringing it to my attention as we'd like to have some version in our wedding.

As for the drinking, I thought you made easily the most thorough and intelligent argument for your preference I've ever heard. I commend you. As for me, my taste runs similar to the argument by the lady above in terms of knowing your limit and slight buzz. Being actually "drunk" is pretty low on my scale of things I enjoy, but "drinking" is fairly high. Of course it has taken years of honing craft and discipline to get into my current zone.

I Never is a game that I am soundly against playing. It falls into that region of "sharing your secrets" gaming that Truth or Dare also resides in. I am not interested in telling close friends, let alone acquaintances and less about the more embarrassing highlights of my life. I am also not terribly interested in the sordid pasts of others. Sadly I do have that ugly gossip/dish-the-dirt tinge that most (American?) society suffers from. But I feel if I'm not willing to share, then it's only fair if I avoid the game outright. This all ties in very closely to the line my humor runs on. I am not a fan of the sexual humor or the "dirty-minded". I've no problem with people's humor leaning that way, but I'm not interested. This has lead to some people getting the impression that I'm prudish or otherwise overly reserved. This may or may not be the case. From your posting and your statements regarding beliefs you seem to fall into this category as well. Yes/no?

Regarding the poor Dutch, are you familiar with the Dutch angle concept in terms of film making?

I feel for your withdrawal and I hope to help. Look for my upcoming recap of the first annual MacT00bage, USA, which took place over the weekend in the beautiful confines under my desk.

[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 09:46 pm (UTC)
Yeah - I thought the 00 thing was worth explaining to the best of my knowledge, though I'm by no means expert on it and suspect nobody really is. Perhaps this could be a job for oo7, or something.

I always meant to ask the fans which they thought the best Buffy season was and regard it as a good sign that all the seasons have their fans. Might be able to borrow the use of a boxed set some day.

Haven't seen Shrek. Haven't seen a lot of films. Only now is this appearing as a problem.

Yes/No: erm, sorry, not really sure. If anything, I'm trying to cultivate an image towards the "no" side of things on a vague feeling that openness about sexuality in a non-sensational sense would probably benefit society as a whole and I can do little other than to play my own part here. I also bluntly suspect/think/hope it's the self-interested option these days with regard to future development thereof.

(...and you're listening to Overshare on WTMI, the official radio station of Tumlingtar airport, Nepal.)

Dutch angle: afraid not. Kindly explain! :-)
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 09:20 am (UTC)


I always assumed the etymology of 'woot' came from 'Want One Of Those!', as per http://www.iwoot.com/ - that must be more recent.
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 09:51 pm (UTC)

Re: Ah.

Hee, what a cool link! At first I thought this was more likely to be a backronym than a happy coincidence, but iw00t.com is available so maybe it's innocent after all.

Probably ought to be "I Want 0ne 0f Those" for iw00t.com, really.
[User Picture]
Date:February 3rd, 2003 10:41 pm (UTC)

t00bity t00b t00b

d00d, i s00 kn00 what t00b means. :D

Really excellent description of the weekend. There really was a lot of singing, wasn't there? Much more than I expected. It was really nice -- I don't do a lot of singing in the dorm, it being such close quarters, so I miss belting out the tunes every now and then. *pokes you until you buy the Shrek soundtrack* "Hallelujah" is one of my favorite songs ever. Ooh, and what was the cd that you brought? We didn't use any of mine either, except for the Pachelbel's Canon song once or twice. Have just learned that "Grr Argh" actually comes from Buffy. Did not know this, am big nerd.

Must play Gnome Toss again! :D

You can be assured that alcohol and I will not be having any kind of relationship in the future. Just being in the b00ze aisle at Tesco on Sunday made my stomach wibble. I guess you could say I'm well disenchanted (not that I was ever enchanted) with the idea as a result of my performance Saturday night. You've got good reasoning.

I don't want to get drunk
Nope, you don't. Big thumbs down on the inebriation. I think it was Hemingway (not that he'd know about being sober) who said, "Always do sober what you say you'll do drunk. This will teach you to keep your mouth shut."

It's irrational.
Surprisingly, I still felt somewhat rational (hence the bag request), but simultaneously out of control. It's not a fun feeling. Perhaps you don't find the idea of getting drunk funny because it leads to artificial funny. My reasoning (Saturday night aside) is that I am silly/funny enough under my own steam (or at least falsely confident that I am) that I don't need alcohol to make me so.

Difficult to distinguish between drink and other drugs.
Am feeling like a massive hypocrite about now. How many times have I fussed about alcohol destroying one's liver? Hmmm...

I might like it.
o_O Are you in my head or something? I've totally thought this. What if I like losing control and having a convenient beverage to blame for it? I think if you're as anal-retentive about self-control as I (usually) am, you probably wouldn't like it. I think that, if anything, I almost focus more on the self-control when I've had a drink or two, just to be sure that I won't do anything that I'd have to blame alcohol for later. On a side note, the MacT00bs should hold themselves in high regard, as they are the first group I've ever trusted enough to let myself get drunk around. Considering that these are the people most likely to post the gory details to the internet, that may have been a bad judgment on my part. *sheepish look*

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that "why not" isn't a good reason, and "I was drunk" isn't a good excuse.

Meh, I'm not so up for playing "I Have Never" again either. On the one hand, I suppose it's because I don't really have any juicy secrets, rendering participation rather pointless, but on the other hand, it's because I don't so much care about other people's. Basically, it's none of my business and doesn't need discussion. I was never comfortable with "Truth or Dare" when I was a kid either. Perhaps because I was (am?) neither particularly trusting nor daring.

*eyes your online goodbye, imagines air *glomp* and blushes a whole lot*
Wow, that's a heck of a compliment. I had sort of wondered, in passing, how I portrayed myself in my journal vs. the perception others have of me. Glad to hear I make a good impression in person as well.

w00t! SO great to meet you and spend the weekend with you. :D We must t00b again s00n. And you must come to Nimbus, or else. Muwahahaha!
[User Picture]
Date:February 5th, 2003 12:59 pm (UTC)

Re: t00bity t00b t00b

what was the cd that you brought?
Am minded to save it as a small pleasant surprise for the future. If you want to know now then we've discussed it using lots of exclamation marks in comments on this LJ in the past. Pachelbel's Canon is Mum's single favourite piece of music. "Grr, Arg" comes from the absolute endcap of OMWF. :-)

On a side note, the MacT00bs should hold themselves in high regard, as they are the first group I've ever trusted enough to let myself get drunk around.
Yes, excellent point. That said, it's an issue I find it very hard to trust anyone on, even my closest friends with whom I joke about this most frequently - you might have noticed me be very possessive of the boxes of juice in the evenings and I asked "I have never spiked anyone's drink" with exactly this in mind. Would I trust people more in the same situation next time? More, but still not much. Sorry.

Considering that these are the people most likely to post the gory details to the internet, that may have been a bad judgment on my part.
Well, there were no gory details other than the ones you posted yourself.

w00t! SO great to meet you and spend the weekend with you. :D We must t00b again s00n.
Absolutely. I look forward to it! LJ t00bage is a relatively poor substitute, even if still rather a fun one.

And you must come to Nimbus, or else. Muwahahaha!
My registration fee was in for Nimbus loooong ago. :-) (Getting the money for the flight etc. may be trickier, but I suspect I'll find a way. I always do.)
[User Picture]
Date:February 4th, 2003 01:13 pm (UTC)
(Aside: can I have assh@t00b.net? Pronounce it...)

Oh, go on then. :)
[User Picture]
Date:February 5th, 2003 01:01 pm (UTC)
w00t! :-)

I think t00b.net may have brought the world more fun per pound than anything else you've ever bought. :-)

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